DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. "The Office," the long-running NBC comedy series based on a British sitcom, turned 20 years old last week. The original version, co-created by Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant, premiered in 2001, starring Gervais as David Brent, the clueless boss of a regional paper supply company. The show's concept was exported to America, with executive producer Greg Daniels developing the series for NBC. He relocated the Dunder Mifflin Paper Company to Scranton, Pennsylvania, and renamed and recast all the roles of the office employees. Steve Carell, then a correspondent for "The Daily Show," got the lead role as office manager Michael Scott. The rest of "The Office" was populated by actors and writers who have become much more famous since the NBC version premiered in March 2005. That's partly because "The Office," which retained the documentary format and no-laugh-track approach of the original, quickly matured into its own funny, popular version and kept maturing much longer than its British counterpart. NBC's "The Office" ran for nine seasons and broadcast 201 episodes, and it's still popular on streaming sites.
Today, in our FRESH AIR anniversary show about the American version of "The Office," we'll hear from cast members and from Greg Daniels and Ricky Gervais. Let's start with a taste from one of the earliest episodes of the NBC version of "The Office." It's from 20 years ago, but couldn't be more topical. Michael Scott, played by Steve Carell, offended some of his employees by reenacting part of a Chris Rock comedy routine. They complained to HR, which ordered that a diversity sensitivity training session be held. Larry Wilmore played the person brought in to run the session, but Michael, instead of sitting with the rest of the staff, decides to stand and deliver.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE OFFICE")
LARRY WILMORE: (As Mr. Brown) At Diversity Today, our philosophy is about honesty and positive expectations. We believe that 99% of the problems in the workplace arise simply out of ignorance.
STEVE CARELL: (As Michael Scott) You know what? This is a color-free zone here. Stanley, I don't look at you as another race.
WILMORE: (As Mr. Brown) See, that - this is what I'm talking about. We don't have to pretend that we're color-blind.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Exactly.
WILMORE: (As Mr. Brown) That's fighting...
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) We're not color-blind.
WILMORE: (As Mr. Brown) ...Ignorance with more ignorance.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) With tolerance.
WILMORE: (As Mr. Brown) No, with more ignorance.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Ignorance.
WILMORE: (As Mr. Brown) Right, exactly. Instead, we need to celebrate our diversity. OK?
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Let's celebrate.
WILMORE: (As Mr. Brown) Right. OK.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Celebrate good times. Come on. Let's celebrate diversity, right?
WILMORE: (As Mr. Brown) Yes, exactly. Now, here's what we're going to do. I've noticed that...
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) You know what? Here's what we're going to do. Why don't we go around and everybody - everybody - say a race that you are attracted to sexually. I will go last. Go.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) I have two.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Nice.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) White and Indian.
WILMORE: (As Mr. Brown) Actually, I'd prefer not to start that way. Michael, I would love to have your permission to run this session. Can I have your permission?
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Yes.
WILMORE: (As Mr. Brown) Thank you very much. And it would also help me if you were seated.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) OK.
WILMORE: (As Mr. Brown) Thank you. OK. So, looking through the cards, I've noticed that many of you wrote down the same incident, which is ironic because it's the exact incident I was brought in here to respond to. Now, how many of you are familiar with the Chris Rock routine? Very good. OK.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) How come Chris Rock can do a routine, and everybody finds it hilarious and groundbreaking, and then I go and do the exact same routine, same comedic timing, and people file a complaint to corporate? Is it because I'm white and Chris is Black?
BIANCULLI: Let's hear from Steve Carell, star of the NBC version of "The Office." Terry Gross spoke with him in 2007, and they started with a clip from the show from Season 2, which once again had Carell as Michael Scott disrupting a workplace sensitivity session. This time, it's a seminar for women only, led by corporate officer Jan, played by Melora Hardin. After we hear her begin the session, Jenna Fischer, as Pam, puts it in context for the documentary camera crew that's following all the action. And then Michael intrudes.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE OFFICE")
MELORA HARDIN: (As Jan) So, I'm happy to be here. It's very nice to see all of you. You're all looking well.
JENNA FISCHER: (As Pam) Today is a women-in-the-workplace thing. Jan's coming in from corporate to talk to all the women about - I don't really know what, but Michael's not allowed in. She said that about five times.
HARDIN: (As Jan) Women today, though we have the same options as men, we often face a very different set of obstacles in getting there...
(SOUNDBITE OF KNOCKING)
HARDIN: (As Jan) ...So...
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Hey, what's going on?
HARDIN: (As Jan) Michael, I...
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Yeah, I - you know what?
HARDIN: (As Jan) I thought we agreed that you wouldn't be here.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) I just - I thought about it. I just have a few things I want to say.
HARDIN: (As Jan) What are you doing?
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Just hear me out. What is more important than quality? Equality. Now, studies show that today's woman - the Ally McBeal woman, as I call her - is at a crossroads...
HARDIN: (As Jan) Michael...
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) ...And no - just - you have come a long way, baby, but I just want to keep it within reason.
HARDIN: (As Jan) Michael...
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) They did this up in Albany...
HARDIN: (As Jan) ...You are not allowed in this session...
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) ...And they ended up turning the break room into a lactation room...
HARDIN: (As Jan) ...OK?
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) ...Which is disgusting, so...
HARDIN: (As Jan) Now you're really not allowed in this session.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Well, I'm their boss, so I feel like...
HARDIN: (As Jan) I'm your boss.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Anybody want any coffee or anything?
HARDIN: (As Jan) We're fine, Michael. We just need you to leave, please.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS: Steve Carell, welcome to FRESH AIR. How would you describe Michael?
CARELL: Michael Scott is someone with an enormous emotional blind spot. He is someone who truly does not understand how others perceive him. And if he did gain any knowledge, his head would explode. He would not - it would not be able to - he wouldn't be able to assimilate. He wouldn't be able to take in all of that information because it's just - certain people exist on a a different level, and they are only able to exist because they are in a sense of denial about who they are or how other people view them. And I think that's who he is. But he's not a bad guy. I think he's a caring person. He wants what's best, but he doesn't always do the best things in order to achieve what he hopes to achieve.
GROSS: You know, a lot of people who have worked in offices feel like they've worked with somebody like Michael Scott, but you've never worked in offices. It's just, you know, you're an actor. So, who do you draw on for the character? Are there teachers that you had or other people who you knew who were as clueless?
CARELL: Primarily, yeah. It - I think for me, it stemmed mostly from various teachers that I had growing up, because many teachers that I've had - especially fifth, six, seventh grade - would be people who were trying to be as cool as the students or wanted the students to think that they were cool. But indeed, they were not. And the harder they tried, the less cool they would appear to be. And that's basically what Michael is up against. He thinks people think he's cool. He thinks people like him and think he's funny and charming. But he's really none of those things. And incidentally, when you say everyone knows a Michael Scott, I guess the rule of thumb - Ricky Gervais told me this in regards to the character that he played, David Brent, in the BBC version of "The Office" - is that if you don't know a Michael Scott, then you are Michael Scott.
GROSS: (Laughter) That's really great.
CARELL: So, better that you actually have a frame of reference for a Michael Scott.
BIANCULLI: Steve Carell, star of NBC's "The Office," speaking with Terry Gross in 2007. Now we hear from two of the writers who worked on the series - Greg Daniels, who wrote and directed episodes of NBC's "The Office," and developed it for American audiences, and Mindy Kaling, who both wrote for the series and co-starred as Kelly Kapoor, whom Michael Scott described as his most ethnic employee. They both spoke to Terry Gross in 2006.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: Mindy Kaling, Greg Daniels, welcome to FRESH AIR. One of the things that happens on "The Office" is that since so - since "The Office" is shot as if it were a documentary about this group of office workers, people are always talking to the camera. Like, looking away from the action and then talking to the camera in a confidential way, talking about what's really going through their mind. And they're often giving these kind of pained glances to the camera as Michael makes a fool of himself in the office. And I'm wondering if, like, during auditions, Greg, you asked everybody to roll their eyes and give pained looks because that's so much of what they have to do. Everybody's always so embarrassed on Michael's behalf and looking so uncomfortable because of what he's doing.
GREG DANIELS: Well, we didn't have a normal audition process. Or we did have a normal audition process, but afterwards, we did screen tests. And we actually took three days and combined all the different finalist actors in different combinations, and we filmed them improv-ing scenes together. And that was definitely one of the great things that distinguished us - for example, Jenna Fischer - the pained looks that she would give to camera.
GROSS: She plays the receptionist, the character Pam.
DANIELS: Yeah, she plays Pam, and she's really the most put upon of all of them.
MINDY KALING: And that's a very - it's a very cool tool because if you noticed in the show, it's only certain characters sort of have the permission to have that familiarity with the camera and the cameraman, and other characters who have less self-awareness do it less. And it works great. Like, for instance, Rainn Wilson, who plays Dwight, has - I think is a kind of character who has less self-awareness, and he doesn't do it as much as, say, John Krasinski and Jenna Fischer, who play Jim and Pam, the two - like, the love interests.
DANIELS: Yeah, it's kind of saying, does anyone else see how crazy this is? So you have to be kind of a reasonable character to get away with it. Although, when Michael Scott does it, it has a different flavor. It's usually, uh-oh, I just blew it again, didn't I? Oh, yes, I did, when he looks to the camera.
KALING: Or that he's the host of a party, and that he wants to keep...
DANIELS: Yeah.
KALING: ...You know, he wants to be kind to the camera people as the, like, host of this party, and the party is "The Office."
GROSS: In the seasons that "The Office" has been on, are there ways that the characters have changed that you never would have expected? And are there ways that Michael has changed, the main character, that you didn't plan on, it just kind of evolved that way?
DANIELS: That's a good question. I think Michael has changed a little bit, and a lot of it has to do with growing away from the British show a little bit, and also Steve's movie career, because when Steve Carell did "40-Year-Old Virgin," I think that was eye-opening for me and for some of the writers to see him play a romantic lead in that way and how likable he was, and helped us include some of those characteristics in his character of Michael Scott.
KALING: You know when you're on the subway and you see this, like, really weird-looking loser that's talking really too loudly, and they have, like, a girlfriend? To me, that was, like, a big change in, like, the second season is that, like, characters who are - you're kind of like, that person's loved by somebody?
GROSS: (Laughter).
KALING: They are. Like, you see Dwight is loved by somebody, and Kelly has love in her own way. And, you know, all these people that you're like, that person's, like, so sort of terrible in their own way. Oh, but I guess they - there's another person out there who understands them and likes them. And most of our characters on the show, who are real characters, have some kind of love life, and that's realistic, I mean, and sort of unusual. And that's a big difference, I think, between our two seasons.
GROSS: Yeah, and Jan, who you mentioned is Michael's supervisor, and he - even when they do maybe, maybe not have an overnight relationship, 'cause she's drunk and he's drunk, and he doesn't - they probably just fell asleep, we think. But he...
DANIELS: I'm glad you picked up on that. We really discussed...
KALING: Yeah.
DANIELS: ...That a lot, and that is - that's what we think, too. We think that she complained about her divorce for hours and then fell asleep on...
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: Right. Except he thinks that probably much more happened, and he's always acting as if they had this, like, long, passionate fling (laughter).
DANIELS: Yeah.
GROSS: Just, like, another example of him getting just, like, everything wrong. It must be so much fun to write for a character like that.
DANIELS: Yeah. He has such little self-knowledge, and that's what makes a great comedy character, I think, is someone without any self-knowledge. And he really lacks it in every aspect of his life.
BIANCULLI: Greg Daniels and Mindy Kaling speaking to Terry Gross in 2006. After a break, we'll hear from the star and co-creator of the original "Office," Ricky Gervais. This is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR. We're celebrating the 20th anniversary of the popular NBC sitcom "The Office." The original British version of "The Office," costarring co-creator Ricky Gervais as office manager David Brent, was the model for the long-running NBC sitcom starring Steve Carrell. Terry Gross spoke with Ricky Gervais in 2004, and they began with a scene from his version of "The Office." Gervais, as Michael (ph) Brent, is conducting a performance evaluation with his receptionist, Dawn, played by Lucy Davis.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE OFFICE")
RICKY GERVAIS: (As David Brent) If you had to name a role model, someone who's influenced you, who would it be?
LUCY DAVIS: (As Dawn Tinsley) What, like a historical person?
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) No, someone who's sort of general life.
DAVIS: (As Dawn Tinsley) Oh.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Just someone who's been an influence on you in...
DAVIS: (As Dawn Tinsley) I suppose my mum. She's just - she's strong, calm in the face of adversity. Oh, God, I remember when she had a hysterectomy.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) If it wasn't your mother, though. I mean, it doesn't even have to be a woman. It could be a, you know...
DAVIS: (As Dawn Tinsley) Man. OK, well, I suppose if it was a man, it'd be my father.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Not your father. I mean...
DAVIS: (As Dawn Tinsley) No.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) ...Let's take your parents as red. I'm looking for someone in the sort of work-related arena who's...
DAVIS: (As Dawn Tinsley) Right.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) ...Influenced...
DAVIS: (As Dawn Tinsley) OK, well, I suppose Tim, then. He's always...
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Well, he's a friend, isn't he? Not a friend. Someone in authority. Maybe I didn't - you know?
DAVIS: (As Dawn Tinsley) Well, then, I suppose Jennifer.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) I thought we said not a woman, didn't we? Or am I...
DAVIS: (As Dawn Tinsley) OK. Well, I suppose you're the only one who...
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Oh. Embarrassing. This backfired, hasn't it? Oh dear. Very flattering. Can we put me? I don't know.
DAVIS: (As Dawn Tinsley) OK. Tim, then.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) We said not Tim. So do you want to put me or not?
DAVIS: (As Dawn Tinsley) OK.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Right. So shall I put strong role model?
DAVIS: (As Dawn Tinsley) OK.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: Now, you've created this story about life in an office. Have you ever worked in an office?
GERVAIS: Yeah.
GROSS: You did?
GERVAIS: I worked in an office for eight years. That's where I got it all from. I was a middle manager. I went to management training seminars where those speakers talked rubbish for two days.
GROSS: (Laughter).
GERVAIS: Yeah, I worked in an office for seven or eight years.
GROSS: Are any of the storylines in "The Office" based on things that have happened to you?
GERVAIS: Oh, let me think. Let's see. Well, the - Episode 4 in Series 1 where we had the guy come in to train people. I remember the first training session I went to, and I remember they did role-play. And I remember at the time thinking, this is ridiculous. And it started off, I'd like to complain about my room. Oh, I don't care. Were you should. You're the manager. Well, go to another hotel then. Well, I will. And they went, that's the wrong way to do it. And then they said, OK, now we'll do it the right way to do it. And he comes in and says, oh, I'd like to complain about my room. Oh, I'm very sorry, sir, what's up with it? Oh, it's just dirty. Oh, well, I'll have someone clean it, and you can have it for free. Brilliant. It was, like, as black and white as that. And I remember thinking, I don't know what the moral is. So I quite like spoofing role-play.
GROSS: Why don't we hear that scene? In this scene, David Brent is role-playing with the guy who's running the seminar. And David Brent is supposed to be playing the customer, and the guy running the seminar is the hotel clerk.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE OFFICE")
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) I'd like to make a complaint, please.
VINCENT FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) Don't care.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Well, I am staying at the hotel. So...
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) I don't care. It's not my shift.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Well, you're an ambassador for the hotel.
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) I don't care. I don't care...
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) I think you'll care...
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) ...What you think.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) ...When I tell you what the complaint is.
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) I don't care.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) I think there's been a rape up there. I got his attention. Get their attention. OK?
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) Right. So well, some interesting points.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Very interesting points.
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) Quite up there.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Yeah.
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) It's not quite the point I was trying to make, David.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Different points to be made.
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) I'm more...
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) OK?
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) ...Interested really in customer care.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) So am I.
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) And the way that we would...
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) I phased...
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) ...Do this on the...
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Maybe I should - as I thought, I should play the hotel manager 'cause I'm used to that. I phased you. But you have to go. See if you can phase me, OK?
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) Yeah, right. OK.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) OK?
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) Hello, I wish to make a complaint.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Not interested.
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) My room is an absolute disgrace.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) Don't care.
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) The bathroom doesn't appear to have been cleaned. And...
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) What room are you in?
FRANKLIN: (As Rowan) Three-six-two.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) There is no 362 in this hotel. Sometimes, the complaints will be false. OK? Good.
GROSS: David completely misses the point in that, but that's so typical of him.
GERVAIS: Of course, 'cause he wants to be top dog. He wants to be the center of attention. He couldn't - you know, he hires this guy, but then he wants to be in charge. So he's just a child. You know, it's his football, and he's got to be, you know, the most important player.
GROSS: Now, later in this same seminar, David turns the discussion into basically a Q&A about himself. And then...
GERVAIS: Yes.
GROSS: And then he reveals he used to be in a band, and then he takes out his guitar, and he starts playing some songs.
GERVAIS: Awful.
GROSS: Awful, exactly. In fact, let me play some of the songs.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE OFFICE")
GERVAIS: (As David Brent, singing) Pretty girl on the hood of a Cadillac, yeah. She's broken down on Freeway 9. Take a look at her engine's starting and leave her purring, and I roll on by. Bye-bye. Free love on the free love freeway.
MACKENZIE CROOK: (As Gareth Keenan) Everybody.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent, singing) The love is free, and the freeway's long. I've got some hot love on the hot love highway and going home 'cause my baby's gone.
CROOK: (As Gareth Keenan, singing) She's dead.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) She's not dead.
(As David Brent, singing) Long time later, see a cowboy crying. Hey buddy, what can I do? He says I lived a good life. I've had a thousand women. I said, well, why the tears? He says, 'cause none of them was you.
MARTIN FREEMAN: (As Tim Canterbury) What, you?
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) No, he's looking at a photograph.
FREEMAN: (As Tim Canterbury) Of you?
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) No, of his girlfriend. The video would have shown that.
FREEMAN: (As Tim Canterbury) Sorry, yeah. He sounds a bit gay at the moment.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent) It's not gay.
FREEMAN: (As Tim Canterbury) No.
GERVAIS: (As David Brent, singing) Free love on the free love freeway. The love is free, and the freeway's long.
GROSS: That's Ricky Gervais as David Brent in a scene from the British sitcom "The Office," which is also now on DVD. Now, Ricky, I know you used to be in a band (laughter).
GERVAIS: Yeah.
GROSS: Are any of these songs you used to do for real?
GERVAIS: No, no, no, no.
GROSS: Good.
GERVAIS: I wrote those...
GROSS: I was really hoping you'd say that (laughter).
GERVAIS: Yeah. No, of course not. No, I wrote those especially for the show. And "Free Love Freeway" - I'm fascinated when British people who have never been out of their own town start writing songs about what it would be like to cross America. You know, they might as well talk about space travel. Again, the joke there wasn't that he was bad or the songs were comical. It was the fact that it was so inappropriate. He's meant to be leading a training session, but he wants to show off. And I love that. Same as those people who take a guitar to a party. You know?
(LAUGHTER)
GERVAIS: It's just, like, shut up.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: The other great thing about this scene is he does all these horrible things that make you so uncomfortable when a bad performer is singing...
GERVAIS: Yeah.
GROSS: ...In a small room. He looks people in the eyes...
GERVAIS: Yeah.
GROSS: ...In a kind of dreamy way. And like...
GERVAIS: Excruciating, isn't it?
GROSS: Exactly.
GERVAIS: Absolutely excruciating. The white man overbite to show he's really...
GROSS: Oh.
GERVAIS: ...Getting into it.
GROSS: Yes, he bites his lip to show how sensitive he's being.
GERVAIS: (Laughter) Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, awful.
GROSS: Now, as a musician yourself, is this something that you've done or that you've just...
GERVAIS: I'll stop you there. Failed musician. Let's get it right.
GROSS: OK, that's fine.
GERVAIS: (Laughter). Yeah. No, I hope I was never like that. And it was...
GROSS: But you've seen people be that way.
GERVAIS: And I wasn't 40. So I hope there's enough distance between me and David Brent there.
BIANCULLI: Ricky Gervais, starring co-creator of the original British series "The Office," speaking to Terry Gross in 2004. The American version of "The Office" is 20 years old. After a break, we'll continue with more interviews from the Dunder Mifflin staff. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. The NBC sitcom "The Office" just celebrated its 20th anniversary, and today, we're featuring interviews with the Dunder Mifflin staff. Next, we'll listen back to a 2008 interview Terry conducted with Jenna Fischer, who played Pam Beesly. She was an original cast member, and when she auditioned for the role of the receptionist, she hadn't memorized any lines. She couldn't.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
FISCHER: My very first audition for "The Office," I had to sit in a chair, and the producer interviewed me in character. There was no script. He just said, we want you to act like Pam or your idea of Pam, and we're going to interview you like a documentary film crew might. And they asked me a lot of questions about, did I like working at a paper company? How long had I lived in Scranton? How did I feel about being filmed by a documentary crew? And my take on the character of Pam was that she didn't have any media training, so she didn't know how to be a good interview. And also, she didn't care about this interview. And so I gave very short, one-word answers. And I tried very hard not to be funny or clever 'cause I thought that the comedy would come out of just, you know, the real human reactions to the situation. And it was great. It was great. We clicked quickly, and they liked that take on it.
GROSS: So in your one-word answers, like, what did you say to the questions you were asked in the audition?
FISCHER: Well, it's funny. The casting director - before I went in, I had known her for a few years, and she had called me in for other jobs. And she gave me some coaching on the phone. What she said was, don't come in looking pretty, which - you know, a lot of times, when you go in on an audition, they want you to look inappropriately sexy or hot for the role. And I used to get called in to play things like - oh, like, a third grade schoolteacher, but look really hot. And so in this instance, the - when I went in for "The Office," the casting director said to me - she said, please look normal. Don't make yourself all pretty, and dare to bore me with your audition. Those were her words - dare to bore me. She said, please do not come in and do a bunch of shtick and try to be funny and clever because it's not that kind of show.
So when I went into the audition, the first question that they asked me in the character of Pam - they said, do you like working as a receptionist? And I said, no. And that was it. I didn't speak any more than that. And they started laughing, and then they asked me a few more questions. My - I mean, my answers were really nothing. They were just yes and no answers. They - and I felt like the comedy would come in watching me think about what I wasn't going to say instead of...
GROSS: Right.
FISCHER: ...In what was said.
GROSS: So when you're giving one of your pain looks or one of your this-is-absurd looks to the camera, who's the cameraperson? Is there an actor behind there that you can kind of, like, interact with, or is it just, like, the camera with a cameraperson?
FISCHER: Well, there's two different scenarios. When we're just shooting the show and it's a scene, the camera operator is this man named Randall Einhorn, and he's our director of photography. And we will look at him. We'll give him the look, or we'll look into the camera at him. And he's become another character or another actor on the show to us, so we do actually act with him. And it's really cute - whenever Pam smiles at the camera, Randall can't help but smile back. The man Randall smiles at you while he's holding the camera. And there are scenes that we've done that have been really touching, and you'll look at Randall, and he'll be, you know, sort of teared up.
And when we shoot our talking heads, our interview segments, the director of the episode serves as our documentarian for that week. Some of the directors, we have them back again and again and again, and one director we're particularly attached to is Ken Kwapis. He directed our very first episode, and he comes back every year and directs a couple of episodes. And last year, he directed the finale. And he's always taken a particular interest in Pam and her journey, so I feel very close to him. And in that moment when Jim burst into the conference room while Pam's giving an interview, and he finally asks her out on a date, I turn to the camera, and in the moment that they used, I'm sort of tearing up. And the reason that I teared up was because when I looked back at the camera, I saw Ken Kwapis, and he - his eyes were full of tears. And he smiled at me and gave me a little wink, like, that's right. You finally got what you wanted, sweetie. And it just - oh, it was a really powerful moment between me and the director.
GROSS: Now, how were you cast opposite John Krazinski? Did you have to do a scene together before you were both cast to make sure that there was chemistry between you? And for anyone who doesn't watch "The Office," I should mention that he's one of the people who works in the office, and you had a long period of flirtation. But, you know, when "The Office" starts, you're engaged to somebody else. And even though things aren't working out between you two, you still feel like, you know, you're involved in this relationship and you can't get involved with the John Krazinski character of Jim. But eventually, you do get together, so there has to be this chemistry between you. So were you tested out together during the audition?
FISCHER: Yes. When it came down to the end of the audition process, they took four Pams and four Jims and four Dwights and four Michaels, and they brought us into a real office. And they filmed us with a camera for two days, mixing and matching us. And over the course of that two days, I was mixed and matched with John several times. And after the second day, we were walking out of a scene, and he turned to me and he said, you're my favorite Pam. I hope you get this job. And I smiled really big, and I said, I'm so glad you said that because you're my favorite Jim.
GROSS: (Laughter).
FISCHER: And I don't think anyone could do it except for you. And when they called and told me that I got the job, I said, please tell me that John Krazinski is playing Jim. And they said, he is, and we're so glad to hear you say that because we thought you two had amazing chemistry. And we're glad you think so, too.
GROSS: Do you have a favorite example of one of the times when Michael, the Steve Carrell character, came up to your desk and did really bad shtick?
FISCHER: Oh, gosh. Well, my favorite Pam/Michael moment from the entire series happens in Season 1, actually. He comes up to my desk, and he wads up a piece of paper. And he goes to throw it into the trash can behind me, and - but instead, it hits me in the head. And Pam looks at Michael, and she says, please don't throw garbage at me. And I loved that moment because I thought, here's a girl who actually has to say to her boss...
GROSS: (Laughter).
FISCHER: ...Please don't throw garbage at me. It's, like, such a known thing, you know? It's just, like, such a thing that any normal person would know not to do. But I felt like that summed up their entire relationship - that Pam is constantly having to educate Michael on simple human interaction.
BIANCULLI: Jenna Fischer speaking to Terry Gross in 2008. Coming up - John Krazinski, who played Jim. This is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR. John Krasinski played Jim Halpert, who had two important relationships on "The Office." He was the friend and later the love interest of the receptionist Pam, and he was the rival and chief tormentor of his office coworker Dwight. Dave Davies spoke with John Krasinski in 2016.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
DAVE DAVIES: So how did you get the role? Did you audition?
JOHN KRASINSKI: I did audition. And I remember the process was very wild for me because I was a huge fan of the English version. I watched it all the time. And when they asked me to audition for this, they actually sent the sides for Dwight. And there was something very weird. Again, I hadn't done anything, but there was something in me that just said if I go in, I want to go with my best foot forward. I don't feel like I'm Dwight. I feel like I'm more Jim. And so my manager at the time called and said, you know, he doesn't want to go in for Dwight. He wants to go in for Jim. And they said, great, then he won't come in at all.
And so there was about three weeks there where I thought the role was gone, the opportunity was gone. And then they called and they said, OK, he can come in and read for Jim, which was pretty amazing. And the first audition went pretty well. And then they flew in the producers from LA to New York. And I'll never forget this day. I was sitting in line. It was a bit of a bizarro, alternate universe feeling sitting next to six other people who looked exactly like you. And we were all going in for the role of Jim, and they went through the line of the six guys and I was the last person.
And the casting director came up and said, you know, we're just going to take a break for lunch. And in my head I thought, oh, just one more would be great. I was so nervous. So I watched, you know, 50 to 60 people go downstairs. It was at 30 Rock, and so they went down to the restaurant, came back up with salads and sandwiches, all these people came back.
And one guy sat across from me and said, are you nervous? And I said, oh, no, you either get these things or you don't. What I'm really nervous about is them screwing up a perfect show. The Americans always have the ability to screw up these amazing British shows, and I'm afraid this is going to be another one of them. And he said, oh, great. I'm Greg Daniels. I'm the executive producer.
DAVIES: (Laughter).
KRASINSKI: And I genuinely almost threw up right on his shoes.
DAVIES: Oh, you were making a crack? Well, it didn't turn him off.
KRASINSKI: No, (laughter) he later said honesty's the best policy - it's the reason you got the role - which I think he's still just being nice. I won't dare try it again by going into auditions now saying I think this movie is going to be horrible and then see if they give me the role.
DAVIES: Well, your character Jim and then Pam, the receptionist, were, you know, important characters throughout "The Office." And the relationship evolved, and you eventually got together and, you know, went and got married, had a kid. You know, what is it like to have a long-term fictional romance with somebody that lasts that long?
KRASINSKI: That's a really good question. I mean, I think we were so honored to be a part of that relationship because, you know, when - you know, we have a weird relationship with our fans, because a lot of people say, you know, we owe our fans everything. But we literally get to say that because we were going to be canceled the first two seasons definitely. Every week, I remember this guy, Jeff Ingold, who worked at NBC - he came every week to say, listen, I love this show. It's just not working. We're going to cancel it.
And it was at the time of iTunes. And I remember our fans were actually buying the show when they could watch it for free, which was a huge revelation, obviously. So because they were buying the show and not watching it on NBC, it showed people that there was a whole new audience that was loving the show so much that they'd actually spend money. So all that to say, we were so involved with our fans from the very beginning.
And when I went around and bumped into people, who were always so kind about the show, they were genuinely moved by this relationship. There was something that everybody was connecting to - this sort of will-he-won't-he type of thing of whether or not I'd get up the guts to ask her out in the beginning - and then followed us along as if we were part of their family or living some version of their lives. And so, for me, I think it was a big responsibility to be a member of that couple. And I loved every single moment of it. It will always be one of the most, if not the most, special relationship I will have on screen.
DAVIES: Well, let's hear a scene with the two of you. I mean, this is from an episode in Season 6 that you actually directed. And in this one, you and Pam are together. She's pregnant, and you're visiting a really good day care center, one that's hard to get into. And you have your hopes up, and you want to make a good impression. And what's happened before - what we're going to hear - is that you and Pam walked into the day care center. You didn't see anybody there. You're poking around, and you opened the door of the boys' room. And there's the day care center director...
KRASINSKI: (Laughter).
DAVIES: ...Played by Joey Slotnick, on the toilet, embarrassed. Oops. And so what we're going to hear is a few minutes later, where you and Pam are in the interview with the guy you just surprised. And it's not going so well.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE OFFICE")
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) There was one thing we were curious about - your flexibility on things like Easter or Memorial Day because we might want to change our days around a little bit.
JOEY SLOTNICK: (As Jerry) That seems a bit premature, don't you think? I don't even know if I have a space for you yet and you're already lining up your holiday plans.
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) Oh, no, sorry. I'm just - we're kind of planners. But we're also all flexible, too. So you know what? Maybe we can just discuss it when the time comes.
SLOTNICK: (As Jerry) Yeah. If the time comes, we can discuss it.
FISCHER: (As Pam Beesly) Is this because Jim walked in on you going to the bathroom?
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) What?
SLOTNICK: (As Jerry) Seriously, you told her?
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) Did it - it might've come up while we were waiting for you.
SLOTNICK: (As Jerry) And you thought that might have something to do with how the meeting is going?
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) No.
FISCHER: (As Pam Beesly) Maybe, because it doesn't seem to be going super well.
SLOTNICK: (As Jerry) You didn't consider the fact that it might not be going super well just because it might not be going super well?
FISCHER: (As Pam Beesly) Nope because we're really nice people, but you don't seem to like us.
SLOTNICK: (As Jerry) I'm being perfectly pleasant. Did you ever consider that you might not be as charming as you think you are?
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert, laughter) Oh, this coming from the guy who's still using a children's toilet? Why didn't you just lock the door, man?
SLOTNICK: (As Jerry) It doesn't lock, for the children's safety.
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) Anybody could've walked in.
SLOTNICK: (As Jerry) It was story time.
(LAUGHTER)
DAVIES: That's our guest John Krasinski with Jenna Fischer and Joey Slotnick in a scene from "The Office."
KRASINSKI: Wow.
DAVIES: You know, you directed this. You know, what I love about that is the pacing, the awkwardness. You don't rush the lines. You just let the awkwardness build.
KRASINSKI: Absolutely. I mean, that was the greatest gift. I mean, the show has given me absolutely everything from, you know, every opportunity because of how amazing that show was. But for me, I learned so much from that show because it was groundbreaking in television, I think, but it was also groundbreaking for me. This was a type of acting that you very rarely will get to do again. It was so up to the actors to decide when you said things, how you said things.
And the producers were so supportive of that huge, long awkwardness, which I think is the big fear that everybody had when we took on the show and, you know, we did our U.S. version of it was that, oh, they'll never be able to do that awkwardness that the English show did. And so I was so proud of that. And that specific scene makes me laugh. I'm definitely a nerd 'cause I still laugh at our show. But I remember directing that. And Joey - I'm so glad that you chose that scene because Joey's a very good friend and so unbelievably funny in that scene.
DAVIES: We have to play a scene of you and your nemesis, Dwight, who's played by Rainn Wilson. I don't remember which season this is from. But here's where he's - you've been promoted to the No. 2 guy at the branch. And here you've arrived late for work, and so he confronts you.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE OFFICE")
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) Oh, what's this?
RAINN WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) That is a demerit.
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) Jim Halpert, tardiness. Oh, I love it already.
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) You've got to learn, Jim. You are second-in-command, but that does not put you above the law.
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) Oh, I understand. And I also have lots of questions, like what does a demerit mean?
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) Let's put it this way - you do not want to receive three of those.
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) Lay it on me.
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) Three demerits, and you'll receive a citation.
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) Now, that sounds serious.
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) Oh, it is serious. Five citations and you're looking at a violation. Four of those and you'll receive a verbal warning. Keep it up and you're looking at a written warning. Two of those, that'll land you in a world of hurt in the form of a disciplinary review, written up by me and placed on the desk of my immediate superior.
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) Which would be me.
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) That is correct.
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) OK, I want a copy on my desk by the end of the day or you will receive a full disadulation (ph).
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) What's a dis - what's that?
KRASINSKI: (As Jim Halpert) Oh, you don't want to know.
(LAUGHTER)
DAVIES: That's our guest John Krasinski with Rainn Wilson in "The Office." You know, I just love the way Rainn Wilson just - this absurd stuff that he just goes at with such conviction, it's just so perfect.
BIANCULLI: John Krasinski speaking with Dave Davies in 2016. Coming up, we hear from Rainn Wilson, who played Dwight Schrute, Jim's nemesis on NBC's "The Office." This is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR. Rainn Wilson is another cast member who was around for every episode since the beginning of NBC's "The Office." He plays Dwight Schrute, who started as a flunkie to Steve Carell's Michael Scott but eventually ended up running the Scranton office himself. Terry spoke with Rainn Wilson in 2008.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: Let me ask you to describe Dwight.
WILSON: OK. That's a good one. Dwight is hard to put your finger on, and I've spent years trying to describe him in interviews. One of the things that Greg Daniels said to me early on - Greg said, Dwight has an adolescent love of hierarchies. And to me, that phrase sums it all up. It's kind of all you need to know. The other thing - so Dwight is a militant, dweeb ass-kisser. Can you say ass-kisser on FRESH AIR? All right. Good. And then I love the fact that he's a - we discover later on that he's a beet farmer, and that makes total sense 'cause you ever meet a farmer, they can't quite ever fit in. They can't really fit into city life, no matter how much they try. They're just more in tune with the dirt and the tides and the seasons and the wolves than, you know, human interaction.
GROSS: Well, you know, you mentioned that, you know, Greg Daniels told you that he has this, like, almost childish love of hierarchy. And at the beginning of "The Office," Dwight is the most loyal lieutenant imaginable to Michael...
WILSON: Yes.
GROSS: ...Who's the boss of this branch. But then he senses he can have that power. And it looks like Michael's going to leave, and he can become the new Michael. And then, you know, all bets are off. Like, you want that power for yourself.
WILSON: Yes.
GROSS: And you just become, like, such - the commander as opposed to the lieutenant. Was that a change in character for you when that change happened to Dwight?
WILSON: No, it wasn't. I think that - and they're so canny, the writers on our show, 'cause they're always creating new textures for me to play as Dwight.
GROSS: Well, I have to play a clip from "The Office." This is a classic scene. It's "Take Your Daughter To Work Day," and you're, like, at the head of what's almost like a little classroom. Like, all the daughters are sitting in chairs, and you're in front, reading to them and playing your recorder or flutophone.
WILSON: Recorder.
GROSS: Recorder.
WILSON: Yes, part of my music nerd heritage.
GROSS: And Michael is at the door, watching. So here's the scene.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE OFFICE")
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute, playing the recorder).
(As Dwight Schrute) That was "Greensleeves," a traditional English ballad about the beheaded Anne Boleyn. And now, a very special treat - a book my grandmutter used to read me when I was a kid. This is a very special story. It's called "Struwwel Peter," by Heinrich Hoffman, from 1864. The great, tall tailor always comes to little girls that suck their thumbs. Are you listening, Sasha? Right? And ere they dream what he's about, he takes his great, sharp scissors out and then cuts their thumbs clean off.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Dwight.
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) There's a photo.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Dwight, what the hell are you reading to them?
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) These are cautionary tales for kids.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Yeah, you know what?
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) My grandmutter used to read them to me.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) No. No, no, no, no. They - no. The kids don't want to hear some weirdo book that your Nazi war criminal grandmother gave you, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) What's a Nazi?
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) What's a Nazi?
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) Nazi was a fascist...
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Don't...
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) ...Movement from the...
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Don't - oh, no, don't...
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) ...1930s...
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Don't talk about...
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) ...In Germany.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) ...Nazis in front of...
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) 1930s.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) ...You know what? They're going to have nightmares, so why don't you just shut it?
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) I was going to teach the children how to make corn husk dolls.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) Why don't you just leave, OK?
WILSON: (As Dwight Schrute) OK.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: Bye, Mr. Poop.
CARELL: (As Michael Scott) All right. There goes Mr. Poop. Now, who likes Dane Cook?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As characters) I do.
GROSS: (Laughter) That's such a great scene (laughter).
WILSON: Written by the great Mindy Kaling.
GROSS: Oh, who's also a member of the cast.
WILSON: Yes.
GROSS: And that was my guest, Rainn Wilson, in a scene from "The Office."
Your character, Dwight, is always so intense and so inappropriate, as he was in his choice of readings. You know, you auditioned for the part of Michael, of the boss of the office - right? - before...
WILSON: Yes.
GROSS: ...Getting the part of Dwight. So what was your audition for the part of Michael like? This is the part that Steve Carell plays.
WILSON: They keep wanting to put it on the DVD of - my audition as Michael. I was terrible. It was awful. It was never meant to be. It was just one of those things that - I just basically did my Ricky Gervais impersonation 'cause I really didn't know what to do with the character.
GROSS: And Ricky Gervais played the boss in the original...
WILSON: In the English series.
GROSS: ...British version. Yeah.
WILSON: Yeah. And I knew I was hungering for Dwight, and I knew Dwight was the one that was right in my wheelhouse. I was like, oh, let me at this one. This is - I got to get this guy. And I remember there was some monologue I was doing about how I could drink my own urine.
GROSS: (Laughter).
WILSON: And I was like, oh, I want to say that. I want to say that line so bad. So my Dwight audition, needless to say, was a lot better than my Michael Scott audition got with them.
GROSS: Now, Jenna Fischer, who plays Pam, the receptionist on the show, was recently on our show.
WILSON: Horrible woman.
GROSS: Yes, she was so dull.
WILSON: Isn't she awful?
GROSS: (Laughter).
WILSON: Yeah.
GROSS: So I want to play you an excerpt of that interview in which she talked about you.
WILSON: Uh-oh.
GROSS: So here's the excerpt of the interview with Jenna Fischer.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: Are there any scenes from "The Office" that were too funny to get through without laughing and you had to keep reshooting them?
FISCHER: Oh, so many. So many. It - you know, what happens is I seem to, every year, get tickled by a new actor in a way where I just - I cannot do a scene with them. And the first year was Rainn Wilson. You know, Pam and Dwight did not have a lot of interaction, and so anytime we did have a scene one on one, I just - I just couldn't get through it. He - Rainn Wilson - he has this weird way that he stands where he pushes his pelvis and his gut sort of out.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: So that's Jenna Fischer talking about you on "The Office."
WILSON: (Laughter).
GROSS: So how did you start doing that as Dwight's way of standing? And he also - am I wrong in saying he's often standing a little too close to the person he's talking to?
WILSON: Yes, he's not so good at interpersonal boundaries.
GROSS: (Laughter) OK.
WILSON: And that includes standing that way. I don't know, you know? It's just, like, you do - it's just what we do as actors, I think. You know, my haircut for Dwight was very important. It was very important to me that I have the least flattering haircut possible to my head, which I designed specifically, thank you very much. And also, the fact that he still wears a beeper, which is about eight years after beepers have been completely discontinued, 'cause he probably has some number that someone might still have. But all of these things put together, and then it kind of comes into your body, and I think your job as the actor is to let these impulses flow through you and not stifle them. So if you have - you know, again, he has this love of hierarchies and this love of power. Well, he's going to assert his power with his pelvis...
GROSS: (Laughter).
WILSON: ...You know, and maybe stand inappropriately close to someone. And it's kind of like an alpha male type of thing.
BIANCULLI: Rainn Wilson speaking to Terry Gross in 2008. NBC's "The Office" is celebrating its 20th anniversary, and the show still is very popular on streaming sites. You can see every episode on Peacock.
On Monday's show, Scottish actor David Tennant, perhaps best known for his role as The Doctor on "Doctor Who." Tennant also is considered an excellent Shakespearean actor. His comedy show, "Staged," with Michael Sheen, was one of the few funny things to come out of the COVID pandemic. The third season of his podcast is out now. I hope you can join us.
(SOUNDBITE OF BILL CHARLAP TRIO'S "JUMP")
BIANCULLI: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Briger is our managing producer. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Diana Martinez. For Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley, I'm David Bianculli.
(SOUNDBITE OF BILL CHARLAP TRIO'S "JUMP") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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