¼ª²ÊÍøÍøÕ¾

PLEASE NOTE: This is a minimally-edited transcript that originates from a program that uses AI.

Anita Rao
After half a year, embedded in the endless cycle of diapers, feeding, laundry and sleepless nights, Tara Ilsley went on her first first date as a solo mom.

Tara Ilsley
I had no idea what to wear, and I looked Mormon, like I showed up in this like light dress that is not me. But I was like, my boobs were so big from breastfeeding. I was like, I just and I already have big boobs, so it was just like a disaster. But I was like, I had to rip the band aid off.

Anita Rao
Things did not improve as the date wore on and Tara never talked to that guy again. Tara is an acquaintance of mine who also lives in Durham, North Carolina, which means I've watched parts of her motherhood journey unfold from afar. And one thing I found particularly striking is that she doesn't shy away from talking about being a single mother who is also a sexual and romantic being on Instagram, she shares screenshots of online dating woes and poems about her physical body, in addition to small moments of joy with her son, I've empathetically nodded and cringed in response to some of her shares while wondering when you have a whole other human to raise totally by yourself. How much of your limited time and resources do you put into dating and romance? What is it like to rediscover your sensual and sexual self while also learning how to be a solo mom? This is Embodied, our show about sex relationships and your health. I'm Anita Rao.

Tara has lots to share about dating and sex as a solo mom, and it's her unconventional path to motherhood that shaped those experiences. Becoming a mom was a winding road, but not for a lack of personal clarity.

Tara Ilsley
I just knew I wanted to be a mom more than I wanted a relationship. I was married before I got divorced, and I dated some but I just really felt I wanted the weight of my baby in my arms, and I just knew that I didn't want to wait for a romantic relationship for that so I think it was around 2019 I decided I just really want to become a mom, and so I had my son via donor sperm, and I was lucky to have fertility benefits at my work, and yesterday he had a balloon dinosaur in the bathtub. And I just can't believe that I have kid.

Anita Rao
When you were going through the process of planning for the experience of being a mom, how were you thinking about dating and sex? Like was that on your radar during that period in your life.

Tara Ilsley
I did go on some dates, and I just really explained like, I am choosing, like, single motherhood. And I have been pretty surprised that most people are a little confused, but really open. But I had a really long journey to becoming a mom. I had, I think, three miscarriages, and so during that time, I didn't date at all. When you feel like your body isn't working, you don't want to go on a date and ask, like, what do you have siblings? It just feels very like false. I think that that I was quite depressed. I just, like, really didn't feel in the spirits of, like, meeting someone new, and I feel like it was kind of an odd intro conversation. Yeah.

Anita Rao
So you did mention that when you were pregnant, you were like, going on some dates. Was that like when you were showing and you felt like you needed to say that you were pregnant? Or what was that like?

Tara Ilsley
I think it was really early in the beginning that I was like, I didn't tell anyone I was pregnant. I was just really nervous. I did one round of IVF, and it worked, and that was my son, and I only had enough money to do it once, and so I just felt so overwhelmed. And so I think I went on a date or two just to like, you know, be like, this probably isn't gonna work, so why not go on some dates? And so I remember I met up with someone actually in Durham Central Park, and I told them, You know, I want to get pregnant soon. And they were so happy for me. And it was honestly a very beautiful experience. And yeah, but after that, I closed that chapter on dating until I had my son.

Anita Rao
So you had your son, and when he was about six months old, you decided to date again.

Tara Ilsley
I think it was like six or eight months and, yeah, I was feeling a little better. I also just was like, I want to go do something for myself.

Anita Rao
Okay, so had you, how did you update your online dating profile, like, after having your kid and deciding to go out, like, how were you thinking about disclosure?

Tara Ilsley
Yeah, I have thought about that a lot. People don't know what single mom of choice is, especially men. I'm unfortunately straight, and so they're like, what is that? And so I say, I'm a solo mom, okay, looking for a partner. And so I think that using the single it, most people just think that you're divorced and you have time off and you're 5050, or whatever that your family structure may look like. And so I have to be very intentional with I am 100% a solo parent, and so that, I think is what it says. And I also note like, plan a date in two weeks. And those are just like, if you're not gonna do the emotional labor of planning a date, then. It, I have realized, like, as a single parent, that is just really important to me.

Anita Rao
So a litmus test for you is, you say, plan a date in two weeks, and whether or not they follow through, and how they follow through matters.

Tara Ilsley
Yeah, I have a date this Friday. Yeah, I'm not gonna say where. Yeah, he, like, planned it. He sent me, like, the reservation, tax. I was like, great. That never happens.

Anita Rao
So going back to that early period, how about your like, sensual self, your sexuality, your relationship with pleasure. What was that like in that postpartum phase for you?

Tara Ilsley
I feel really lucky. I remember my mom was, like, one of the few moms that had, like, the puberty book out for like everyone, and shout out to the Sex and the City episode that talked about the buddy vibrator. And I think just like, yeah, knowing that I do know how to pleasure myself, I think that is really important. And I do think, like, making time for yourself, like, I take a bath. Like, I tell people I'm, like, an 1800s woman, like, I take a bath every night. Do you love a bath? And yeah, I think especially with dating, like, making sure, like, my son has a really set bedtime, so if I do go on a date, like, it's really easy, I put him down, and then I go on a date. And so that has helped, too, with making like, a structure.

Anita Rao
And is that, just like you find a babysitter every time, or, like, how do you make the logistics work?

Tara Ilsley
That is the challenge, most challenging part. If someone makes plans and people are sick, like, I really lose money. And so the financial impact of dating is not something I had thought about before I had my son. But, you know, I will pay the babysitter. There's 24 hour you pay regardless. And I really deeply care about my babysitters, and so I will do that. But last week, I think I lost, like, $100

Anita Rao
Because you'd prepaid and then you had to cancel.

Tara Ilsley
Yeah, like, I would, I'll probably end up doing something, but I can only go to Target so much. I have found just people don't seem as understanding, yeah, of like, the the amount of labor. Like, for example, my sister was going to babysit last week, and she was going to leave work early because the babysitter canceled. So, like, she was going out of her way, and the babysitter canceled, and then the person was going to go on a date with said, you know, today's not a good day for me. Oh, and like, that is, is that a deal breaker for you? Oh, I It's really infuriating. Yeah. I don't know if it's possible to write it off on your taxes, but if I could write patriarchy off of my taxes, your girls doing it because I'm starting to send Venmo request. Are you? Well, that has happened like once, but yeah, it really I just can't lose money. Yeah, want to find a partner, but I do think like, unless it's emergency, you have to get people 24 hours notice, especially if they're getting child care. Dating can feel very, you know, transient, but when it really impacts my life and like, really just makes me sad, is moments like that where it's like, I've gotten to sit, or I've done all the things, and then it's someone just says, Oh, I'm not feeling up to it. And that is where, like, I just kind of think maybe this life on my own is just great the way it is.

Anita Rao
Well, you said, like, I do really want to partner, so I wonder about that, like, when you are dating, what are you looking for, and how has that shifted since making the choice to become a mom on your own?

Tara Ilsley
Yeah, that's a great question. I'm definitely not looking for someone that's like fun on vacation, which I was in my 20s. Yeah, you know, I want someone that likes to cook dinner, that is kind that says what they say they're gonna do, and really basic things, and I have had really great relationships. And yeah, I really like being in relationships, so I think I I only want that if it's going to add to my life, yeah. And so, yeah, I've have changed kind of my mindset on what I am looking for and like, what matters. And honestly, it's just like, Did you tip well? And like, did you say thank you to the server? And I look at it through my son, and like, what kind of person do I want him to be? And like, does this man have the same skills as my son, or does my son have more skills? And sometimes my son has more skills, your two year old, my two year old. And so yeah, just thinking, how are they adding to my life? How are they showing up? And if you're not going to take some of the load of life off of my my plate. My life is really full. And so just like, how quick I make a decision on someone has really changed, because I don't have a lot of time. And just noticing, really in the beginning, like, this person's not communicating well, and so I'm not even going to go out with them.

Anita Rao
Do you give yourself permission to, like, once you make that calculator? Calculus of like, okay, you don't have the skills that I would want in a potential partner. Do you ever give yourself permission to still be like, but I'd like to have sex with you anyways. Like, can you have one night stands when you're a solo parent? How does that work?

Tara Ilsley
I feel like you could, for sure, anyone have a one night stand. I hope there's like an 80 year old right now, like having a one night stand somewhere. Like, that's amazing, but I feel like it's just like logistics. And like, for me, it's like a safety issue. Like, do I really want someone that I don't know really well in my home? And so for me, it's like, no, usually I rather just masturbate, yeah. So I think just looking at it from like, a safety perspective too, because one time, this is very embarrassing, but I went on a date. My mom. So anytime my parents are here, it's like, I'll go out with my girlfriends, because, you know, it's grandma and grandpa, yeah, and I fell asleep at my friend's house. Wasn't even a date, but my mom thought I was on a date, and I was up till four in the morning at my friend's couch. And that was just like, one of the most embarrassing. No, you're like, No, I was just not making anywhere. And like, my mom was up, she had called me, and I was like, I'm almost 40, and like, my mom's worried about me while she's taking care of my son. So yeah, stuff like that. But I would like to be partnered, but I think it I am much clearer of, like, what matters to me, and I just don't have as much space in my brain for, like, texting these guys. They just need friends, like they that. They just want tags. I'm like, I'm not looking for a pen pal. And they are circling back, like this guy will with 1l. I met him four years ago, and he just texted this fall.

Anita Rao
My friend always says, like, online dating, there's like, a boomerang effect where, like, even if they ghost you, they will still come back around.

Tara Ilsley
I had a whole baby, like, I had a whole baby, like, and he goes, we have unfinished business. And I was like, the CASPER movie, and he didn't get it because he was old. And I was like, I just don't I don't know. Many friends are gonna, like, circle back that long, no, but the men on the apps like they are saving your number for like, a down day.

Anita Rao
We're gonna hear more from Tara about dating and single motherhood in just a moment, everything from how much is too much to share about your kid on a first date to how she centers her own pleasure in the day to day, you're listening to Embodied from North Carolina public radio, a broadcast service of the University of North Carolina, at Chapel Hill, check us out on Instagram, or at embodied W UNC. You can also hear embodied as a podcast, follow and subscribe on your platform of choice. We'll be right back.

This is Embodied. I'm Anita Rao. A note that this part of the conversation includes references to self pleasure. If you want to listen to this episode later, you can find it in the embodied podcast feed, in her online dating profiles. Tara Ilsley is up front about her identity as a solo mom, which sometimes introduces a lot of questions.

Tara Ilsley
This was kind of like a lesson learned, because sometimes I was just like, Oh, I'm a solo parent, and then, like, on the date, I'd have to explain, like, Oh, I'm not divorced, like, this is the way my life looks.

Anita Rao
Tara had her son via IVF with donor sperm two and a half years ago, and fitting romance into early motherhood has been both joyful and challenging. She's gotten very practiced at telling potential dates about her unique motherhood story and being upfront about her needs.

Tara Ilsley
As a mom, I will say majority of folks are, like, incredibly positive, and they're like, that's really cool. Or like, I've had some people like, oh, there's no like, drama. I'm like, I guess. And so those kind of reactions, but I have found, for the most part, people are like, that's great. I think when it does get challenging is like, if we go on a couple days and kind of realizing how hard scheduling is, that's when it's, like, kind of challenging, because I can't really leave my house a lot because my son's asleep, and so sometimes it's, I don't think some people get how hard it is to plan, and that can really slow down, like the momentum of dating, or the excitement and just how it used to be when I was dating before, like, Hey, you want to come to my house for dinner tonight?

Anita Rao
Yeah, let's have a spontaneous date that continues.

Tara Ilsley
Yeah, it's like, meetings we're going on, like, corporate meeting datings.

Anita Rao
Do you have to compartmentalize, like, motherhood Tara and Tara that wants to date and have sex?

Tara Ilsley
I don't think so. Okay, I probably should more, but tell me more. Tell me more. I just feel like I want my son to be able to talk about, like, all kinds of things. And I really want it like, you know, just because I'm not partner doesn't mean I don't have passions, or doesn't mean I don't want that, you know. And I think when I thought of initially having my son, I think, you know, I don't know what this is gonna look like. I would love to have my son this way, and then maybe another child one day with someone that I meet. But I'm just, like, very open to possibilities of, like, whatever my life would look like, even if it's just me and my son. That is amazing. But I do think that sometimes just having those conversations with people and then also with my son, I do think, you know, even telling my son as you get older, like, Mommy's gonna go out and you know, like, what dating means. Like, how do you explain that to a child, that it is developmentally appropriate? And so I think having that time for me is really important, but I don't think he fully gets that yet, and I haven't dated someone enough where they have met him, and that has kind of been a part, but I do think, yeah, I'll have to navigate that one day and and what that looks like.

Anita Rao
So you said like, you don't feel like it's compartmentalized, but I'm wondering when you're like, in a moment of being on a date with someone or someone is over and like, motherhood calls in an unexpected way. What is that experience like? Of like having to make that shift in front of someone? Maybe. Be who isn't as like, embedded in your life, or who don't know as well?

Tara Ilsley
Yeah, that's I dated someone for four or five months in Linux is about one. And I think back in that time, all the time, because it was, like, so many intimate moments, and that person was lovely, but I don't feel like I wanted to share it, like it's so intimate, so fast, when your baby is there. So like, if I'm dating someone, and then Lennox cries and wakes up in the middle of the night, it just like, is a band aid ripping off of like, Yeah, this is my real world. This is priority. I've had to ask someone I'm dating like they need to leave, like my son is sick, like I need you to get out of here and things like that, where it's just, like, very clear what matters. And even going back to, like, spending money on dates like I have canceled dates a lot too, you know, because of childcare hours, he's sick or or that. But I do think, yeah, that is a challenge, something I'm still working on.

Anita Rao
When you say intimate, do you mean like this, this moment that I need to experience with my kid feels too intimate to bring you person I don't know very well into is that what you mean?

Tara Ilsley
It's more that I just, you know, I don't, yeah, I can go back to that. But, like, once he has, like, an acute need, I don't want to go back to that. Yeah, you are not my partner, yeah, not like, I just need you to get out of here. Yeah, your desire for it is, and I've, like, had situations like, they totally understand. Yeah, you know, but i That's why I don't really have bring people into the fold until it's, like, quite serious, because it's just not worth the like, stress of that. But that's only happened, like, one time or two times. But yeah, it's just so less now, because he's a little bit bigger, but like, especially when it was really little, like, I just need to get like, Oh, my dog too. I have a dog that's quite old and, like, she has music or just stuff like that. Yeah, it's not just me and this other person, like, this is my priority, and I think it Increases Intimacy really fast, and so just being careful, that's why it's like, having the conversations like, what does this mean? Because that could just be, like, a couple dates in, and so that has really changed. Like, what I'm trying to ask on dates, and really just, like, how do I feel around this person? And I think I had didn't spend as much time of, like, how does this person make me feel? I dated someone, I went on like, three or four dates, and I think it was the fourth date they picked me up, which was like, Yeah, that's great. I don't want to drive, and their car smelled like smoke, and I had no idea that they smoked, which I don't know it wasn't on their profile. And I was like, That for me is a hard No, yeah, I don't even know. Like, people still smoke in their car these days, and he had a kid, and that really freaked me out. And so, yeah, stuff like that, which I don't think I would have cared. I was like, that's their life. But if I want to build a life with someone like, I'm just not into secondhand smoke.

Anita Rao
It seems like you have a lot of clarity about what you want, and also, like your body sends you really strong signals about what to do in those moments. Is that something that you've cultivated, or does that come naturally to you?

Tara Ilsley
Yeah, I think like over time, yeah, is just like the lesson of life. It's just like learning to listen to my body, yeah. Why did I do that? I also think just your body feels like a war zone after a kid, and it's just like, stuff doesn't hit the same and like just everything feels like, I don't know, Weekend at Bernie's, but that's kind of like what it feels like that guy on the ocean, he's like, walking that movie's still so good, but that is kind of what it felt like postpartum, yeah. And so like, getting out of that, and then back in quote, A Maggie Rogers song, back in my body. But I do think it is a slow process. And I think there are times I was thinking the other day, like, there are days where I long for someone to just be like, you look great today, or like you're a really good mom and that person to be my partner. Because I think, yeah, it's just really challenging. And I do think that dating has changed. I has noticed it changed since I've had my son, or just the flakiness of people, but I have found it at times to be even though I feel more in tune with my body, it seems like there's a lot of people who are like, I'm in therapy, but they're like, not in therapy. Yes, they say it, but have they fully done like they learned what emotional language is, but like, I don't think they went to therapy. They like read about it. Maybe, yes. And so I think that has been a challenge.

Anita Rao
That reminds me of a poem that you wrote that I'd love for you to read about the experience of dating. So tell us the title and then read it for us.

Tara Ilsley
Sure. This is called dating at 37 after a cesarean. He cannot spell there correctly. Is that a reason a lifetime of let down, nor did he know about the children of Palestine. These men are bobble heads with mashed potato brains of fantasy football teams, the algorithm said compatible. I looked down at my scar. I no longer feel the need to curtsy to anyone.

Anita Rao
I love that there's, there's so many moments in there of like, such embodied self. Sensation and awareness, and what does it feel like to read that and reflect back on the experience of writing it?

Tara Ilsley
Yeah. It feels Yeah. I feel like I wrote this a couple months ago, of just being on a date and being like, why am I even here? And like, I don't want to be here just thinking I've spent a lot of time, I think, in motherhood and just trying to listen to my intuition of what did my grandmother do and her grandmother and my mom, and I think the last line, like I no longer feel the need to curtsy to anyone is just how I want to start the new year, and just moving into dating as well. And I've had a lot less dates since I put on my profile, like, plan a date in two weeks, and it's been great. I have less dates, but they're more plans. Yeah, they try to plan, you know, and then it, like, doesn't happen. Then I'm like, great, great. That was all the information I needed. And so, yeah, it's also just dating is really vulnerable. It's really hard to, like, randomly meet a stranger, and there has been so many times where it has been the funnest time, and it didn't end, you know, as a relationship, but it's still an amazing conversation. I went on a date with this Argentine guitar player, like a year ago, and it was just such a fun date. And, you know, we wanted different things, but I think it also I was glad I went. It does take me out of, like the mom world, and into, you know, a completely different world, which is nice.

Anita Rao
You are almost three years into parenthood. What aspects of your relationship with sex and pleasure Do you feel like have been hardest to stay connected to?

Tara Ilsley
I feel like my changing body has been it's changed more in the last couple years than probably my whole life. And yeah, just being in touch with myself and my body and just all the things that it can do, and being less worried about the numbers on the scale and how I feel, I think is a journey as a child of the 90s. And yeah, so I think that has helped, and I think it's also opened me up to, you know, being open to other people's understanding of, like, what is pleasure to them, and not being judgmental. And I think I had this idea of, like, what motherhood would be like, and what sex would be like. And I do think it's, it's better than I thought. I thought, you know, I had this idea of things end like, you know, I just like, there's this narrative in our society, but it's like, I can go on dates, be a single mom, and have fun, and it doesn't need to be so serious all the time.

Anita Rao
Sex is better now that your mom?

Tara Ilsley
I think it's just different. You know, sex, like all things, is as good as what you put into it. But yeah, I think like finding folks that are like, interested in your pleasure is like, key, yeah. And I feel if you can plan a date, you're probably more likely to be interested in making me come and so like that is also just something that I am, like, attuned to as well.

Anita Rao
Has motherhood, like allowed you to give yourself permission to center your pleasure more? Is there a connection there, or this is

Tara Ilsley
you? So, yeah, yeah. I think I just have less time, yeah. And so I have to be much more, yeah. I think it's just the time thing. I talked to my friend the other day. I was like, What did I do? I mean, I have no idea. I did watch a lot of love is blind. And, yeah, still watch Love is Love is blind. But, like, I just said, like, what was I doing? So, yeah, I think just finding time, that's just mine, yeah, and like, whatever that looks like, whether it's pleasuring myself or just like sitting on the floor, but sitting and like actually doing nothing, doing nothing, listening to anything, not tuning out. But I think that has really helped. And just seeing, like, how much women do, I think dating also opens my eyes, because I'm going on dates with divorced men that have never made a reservation. Oh, you can tell Yeah, and it's like, oh, well, not trying to be your mother, right? And so, yeah. So I do think, like, whenever I thought of having my son, I didn't think that I was completely closing the door to love or a relationship, but it definitely is, like, logistically, it feels like Candy Land some days, like, like, I barely mess it. Like, people message me, like, clearly you're not that interested.

Anita Rao
I'm like, like, No, I was on the backwards slide back to sugar plum. Yeah, whatever. Who are you?

Tara Ilsley
But there are also so many hilarious things that happen in dating. I had someone message me a couple weeks ago and he texted the wrong person. Oh, my God, send it. Like, too late, too late. I've already witnessed this. It's so it was so bad, it was funny, and so just stuff like that, where I'm like, I'm here for the group chat, always for content. Or like, how many of these men just like, blur out their ex's face, and you're like, oh my god, anyone can take your photo. It is rough on the apps. It is rough on the streets.

Anita Rao
Yeah. So looking forward into your. Your future and your kid's future. How do you think things are going to change as he gets older in how you approach the process of dating and what you want?

Tara Ilsley
I think it'll just be more conversations. I don't really explain much to him now. Yeah, he's asleep on dates, so that's cool, but yeah, just thinking I dated someone previously that had a child, and it was, yeah, really lovely, yeah. And it's just more conversations, and in getting to know someone now, it's just real slow roll. There's not a lot of like, love bombing when you have a child. And so yeah, I just hope to add someone or not, I really just feel at peace with where my life is at and making sure that, like whoever is in my life, that it's a positive influence on my son. And I just really want someone that can, like, make good food skills. Can you bring to my life? And that's what I think about. Like, what I really think like, put your skills. Like, can you fix things around the house? Like, I'm looking for real skills. Like, yeah, AmeriCorps. Like, what AmeriCorps skills? Can you bring to this household? Need my decks fixed? And so just things like that, where I'm, like, thinking of it as, like, more of a project manager. Yes, I love this and and I will say it is worth it to pay, like, the whatever $10 so you can filter people. I didn't do that before when I didn't have a kid, but it's worth the whatever 20 bucks a month, because I have, like, almost no matches when I filter for political stance and geography and if they want kids or open to kids, okay? And so that really limits if they are open to kids, because I have no intention dating someone that doesn't want to be around kid. Yeah. And so that really has like that makes it a lot easier, a lot less noise.

Anita Rao
It seems like you have a really robust community of people in your corner along this journey with you. For other single moms who maybe are like earlier parts of this journey or don't have as robust of a network, is there any like advice that you want to offer or anything you want to share about what has, yeah, what has allowed you to kind of create space to envision the world that you want for Tara as a human, in addition to Tara as a mom,

Tara Ilsley
Make sure when you're playing the babysitter, plan the babysitter and then give yourself 30 minutes. Very practical, because I would be like, so stressed trying to get everything ready for him, and then I was like, I look like Adam Sandler getting coffee. Like I need to go get dressed. I look awful. And I just found if the babysitter is there, and then I give myself 30 minutes to get ready, the date is less time, but that's fine. I don't need to go on a three hour long first date, and I have time afterwards, so it's like planning it so I'm not so rushed, because I want to listen to music like I want it to be a relaxing experience, and it's not relaxing when I'm literally, like, power walking, sprinting into a place scattered as hell. And so that has been like just life, half for me, getting someone, like a regular my sister does Tuesdays. She just watches my son on Tuesdays, and so I know something like that. It's like, really nice to have, like, someone that can help, that wants to Yeah, and it's good for my son and gets away from me and gets time with Auntie, yeah. But there it is really hard, like, I am not dating as much because it is expensive to get sitters, and people are really busy. And so maybe plan the date like, maybe there's three hours minimum, and it's $20 an hour. So that's $60 a date. And so I have thought, if a date cancels, like, how much per minute is this date? So just things like that. I was not thinking in, I think a lot in, like, how many sandwiches something we'll buy a lot now because of inflation, and I think about that dates, and so now I do not even offer my car, like I sit on a date and I just pretend I don't have money, and I just smile, because

Anita Rao
You're like, I've already spent, I'm already negative $100 to be here.

Tara Ilsley
Yeah, it's like, I've done that two times, and I feel very uncomfortable about it, because I but I'm like, I don't have money, any more money to give so, yeah, it's also, like, a coffee date, you know what I mean? Like, we're not going to, like, you know, fancy place, but I just can't afford both they, know, I have a child, but, yeah, that's something just financially, trying to think of, is this going to be worth my time and energy and and finances,

Anita Rao
I'd love to end on like the best piece of advice that you've gotten from another solo mom, or doesn't even have to be that has is like something that you go back to in maybe moments where it's feeling like particularly difficult to juggle all of these things and to prioritize, especially to prioritize your yourself and your own pleasure.

Tara Ilsley
Yeah, I think just thinking of like you have everything you already need, and like this is not the hardest thing I've done. I've been saying that a lot like this is like all the things I've ever wanted is right here and right now and so, yeah, it's. Just being appreciative that and realizing that. Like, it's a long journey. And so, like, there are times where it might seem really, really hard, but everyone says it's just a phase, and it feels like that with now that I get older, it's like, Damn, it was just a phase. Like, whether it's something going on with my body or my emotions, like, there are just times where you feel more in your body, you feel better about yourself. And it's like that, and flows. And I think especially now, but I think just thinking, yeah, everything I really need to do to do this job as a mom, and in my sensuality and sexuality, I have, and I just think of like, my grandmother didn't have electricity, and I can order Uber Eats in like, 20 minutes. Like, I think all the time, like, I and my grandma's dream, like, I impregnated myself and like, got to create this beautiful family. And so, yeah, just that. You know, things definitely seem like scheduling is hard, but it still is. Like, this is my dream life. And, you know, the women before they some, I think of our ancestors. I'm like, they were doing some hard labor, and I get to watch Netflix. So just like, really remembering, like, what matters. And I mean, I'm just still can't believe I'm a mom. The other day, Lennox told me to breathe.

Anita Rao
What a beautiful, beautiful place to land. I love that. Thank you so much for this conversation. This has been so fun.

Tara's forays into dating are so far all against the backdrop of raising a baby, now toddler, with all the excitement and messiness that entails. But what is it like for divorced, single moms with older kids to center their own sexuality and pleasure? We'll hear one woman's answer to that question just ahead. We'll be right back.

This is Embodied. I'm Anita Rao. This part of the conversation references self pleasure, if you'd like to listen later, you can find this episode in the embodied podcast feed. When Cordelia Ghaffar finalized her divorce after a 20 year marriage, the thing she felt most in her body was nothing

Cordelia Gaffar
I would say from my diaphragm down. I was very numb.

Anita Rao
Cordelia's plate was extremely full. She had six kids, some of whom she was homeschooling and she was running her own business. But as she found time to reflect, she took stock of what she wanted to reconnect to in this new chapter of single parenthood, and one big theme emerged.

Cordelia Gaffar
I was first asking myself, what part of me had I not nurtured for the past 20 years? Because I saw my divorce as an opportunity. We had stopped having sex regularly, me and my husband before we got divorced, and so I chose to educate myself more on how I can excavate ways to nurture my sexuality.

Anita Rao
We spent the first part of today's show talking with a solo mom of a young kid and hearing about how she's navigating romance in the throes of early parenthood. For Cordelia singleness came a little later in her motherhood journey, when the youngest of her kids was six and the oldest was 20. Before she got back into relationships with other people, she wanted to do some personal education, so she decided to enroll in tantra school to learn more about connecting to sex, spirituality and the body.

Cordelia Gaffar
As Muslims, we actually say prayers before we have intercourse with our spouse, so I thought that I was very spiritually connected to my sexuality, and what I discovered is that there was so much more, and what I had previously experienced was just what I would call the portal between worlds, but there's like a whole other world on the other side of that portal.

Anita Rao
Is there a metaphor or way to put into words, like an example of something that you uncovered that felt like a new revelation or a new path to connection to your body.

Cordelia Gaffar
So if you like to eat ice cream, right? Previously, I was eating chocolate ice cream, and now I'm eating Belgian chocolate ice cream with milk that's ethically sourced from a cow that's well loved,

Anita Rao
richer, better, more complex. Yeah, so is that what even self pleasure became. It went from chocolate to, you know, perfectly sourced. Ice Cream, yes,

Cordelia Gaffar
yes. In the beginning, self pleasure was not so pleasurable because I was numb, actually, and part of my genitalia, and now it's so much richer. It's almost like the first time as a child, you know, when you first discovered that you had a clitoris, yeah? And it was like, so yummy. So it feels like that again.

Anita Rao
So you had gotten this education at Tantra school, and then you did begin to get back into dating, or you did have some semblance of an interest in dating. Tell me about that and what that was like.

Cordelia Gaffar
I really didn't get an interest into dating, yeah, I guess it was about once I had been in tantra school about a year, maybe a little bit over, and I first thought that you can get all this education and date the normal guys on the street that was weird. I was like, these guys actually know nothing about bodies connecting with women or, you know, and so although we were instructed not to, I ended up in a petite affair with one of my fellow colleagues in class, and that felt easier, more fluid, like an actual human connection, yeah, like we could see and hear each other and recognize when we were reflecting back. And it was a very conscious uncoupling. It was like, Thank you for our time together, and then we just stopped seeing each other, and I took that time to take some notes and kind of debrief with myself. And, you know, see what I'd learn, what I'd like to do differently, and how to approach dating again and perhaps again, with the vanilla world.

Anita Rao
So what did that notepad say? What did you come up with?

Cordelia Gaffar
Well, I had a lot of residue from my marriage, you know, and I shut down very easily. I don't receive well, and I was still in the habit of over giving, so I just chose to be more present with myself and care for myself and nurture myself, and not judge myself for those things. And I just took it really, really slowly. And at the same time, I had just finished a certification in somatic movement, so in the absence of having any classes going on at that time, I just decided to use it every single time, like before I would go out on a date, and that changed the way I showed up. Eventually, it changed the people that I attracted as well. So I was doing this practice before I leave my house, like if I was just going to the grocery store or roller skating with my kids or anything. And so the type of people that I attracted were more present, and they could see me and hear me, and they seemed to value me more

Anita Rao
you were doing like a somatic breathing practice before going out into the world. Is that what you're saying

Cordelia Gaffar
breathing and movement? Okay? Yes.

Anita Rao
So it seems like you're drawing threads between the practices that helped you get more into your body, that helped draw people to you, and practices that helped you get in your body to spend time with your kids in a meaningful way, and I'm curious about that, like, how this evolution for you of getting more in touch with yourself changed how you approached motherhood and that role.

Cordelia Gaffar
Yeah, so I loved my somatic practices so much that I invited my my my daughters. So my my two sons eventually moved in with their dad, and it was just me and my four daughters in my house. And so once a day, we would just do a 15 minute practice together, and we just got really honest and open with each other. And that has been the best part. Like now, they come to me with anything and everything. It's so freeing to have those conversations with my daughters and to instill this awareness in these practices in them before they even enter into marriage.

Anita Rao
What kinds of conversations did you have with your younger kids as you started to date more? How did you navigate that?

Cordelia Gaffar
In the beginning, I was just like, I'm gonna go out with some friends. And they were like, Oh, that's great, Mommy, you should go and spend time with adults, you know. Uh huh. Yeah, but eventually, you know, there was someone who was actually qualified to meet them. So I told them that, you know, Mommy is seeing someone, and I think that you'll like them. Since my ex husband had just gotten married, they were kind of like, you're not getting married too, are you? And I was like, No, not yet. And they said, Okay, then we'll, we'll meet him and see if he's good enough for you. And he passed the test, so he's still around.

Anita Rao
How did you talk about your identity as a mom and parent in your dating life, and How was that received?

Cordelia Gaffar
So remember, in the phase where I was dating people and and it didn't go well,

Anita Rao
the vanilla out on the street people, right? Yes,

Cordelia Gaffar
I'm also like, in my 50s, but I don't look at so these were younger people, and they were like, Oh, my God, you've got how many kids? I don't know if I can afford all that. You know, it was rejection, but I didn't feel that way about it, because for me, I was experimenting with dating. You know what I mean, but if I were actually trying to connect with people to create companionship, it probably would have hurt a lot.

Anita Rao
How did you release that expectation, like, of what you were looking for and how the relationship would evolve? Was that a conscious process?

Cordelia Gaffar
Oh, yeah, I was very clear that I wasn't interested in having, like, a long term, committed relationship, and if I did, the person would be for me, and they would not be the step father to my children. I think there's a distinction. And I told my girls that I said, you have a father, anyone that I'm seeing is for me, and maybe they'll be like your uncle, you know, that kind of relationship? Yeah, yeah.

Anita Rao
So you, at one point, started looking into and exploring ethical non monogamy, basically being in relationships with multiple consenting people at the same time. I'm curious where this fits into your broader journey that you were on with your sexuality?

Cordelia Gaffar
Yeah, it's kind of like the reverse of what Muslims believe, isn't it? So, I mean, actually, it's not called ethical non monogamy in Islam, but that's what polygyny is, where a man can marry more than one wife. I got this idea when I was in tantra school, there was, you know, a lot of supplementary reading that was suggested. So I read a book when there's more than two and it was specifically about ethical non monogamy. And I thought, Oh, this is great, because I like the idea of having a community, like a main partner, and then, you know, maybe, like one or two auxiliary partners, not that I'm necessarily having sex with all of them, but just I like to have deep, stimulating intellectual conversation, and I appreciate that all people don't know about all things. Yeah, so that's where it comes from. How did you make space to explore this? Or how do you with your responsibilities as a mom, like on a more logistical, practical scale? How do you create that time? I have a theme for every day so and also my main person, I prefer not to live near me, so that makes it a lot easier. So the scheduled time is when, you know, I get to travel once a month. And as far as the auxiliary people, those are kind of like, if I want to go out and do something, and they live nearby. So again, it's about one day a week. So the themes are people, or what are the themes? Oh, yeah, I will share. So Saturday is self nurturing Saturday, so that's

Anita Rao
okay. I need another whole week now. Keep going.

Cordelia Gaffar
Yeah. So that that's the day for that I nurture myself, and sometimes I'll go out with people on that day. Let's go through the rest of the week. So we have sweet walk Sunday, and that's me deciding how I want to walk into my week. Usually I don't see anybody that day magnetizing Monday again, this is about honing in on my walk for the week and what I am magnetizing. Take pause. Tuesday again, this is a day just for me to pause with whatever it is that I really need to pay attention to in my. Life, you know, if it's an administrative thing, if it's a physical thing, if it's I need to sleep winning Wednesday, just reminding myself to celebrate myself, to celebrate my wins for the week, and then transcendental Thursday, if there's been like, something that's weighing me down, like just allowing myself to really look at what it is that's going on and transcend that situation, and then free to be Friday. And that's just remembering that I have freedom to exist however I wish to.

Anita Rao
I am obsessed with alliteration, so like this is just hitting all of the positive bells. For me, I love this idea of of being intentional about those themes and creating that space in it. And it seems more like a mindset, too, where it's not like you have to set aside, you know, three hours every day for this, but it's just something that you're kind of tuning into over the course of the day, exactly

Cordelia Gaffar
so easy, right? Because when you're a mom with six children and running a business, and now I have a part time job and I want to create companionship, I have to be really intentional. And I don't have hours and hours to do that. But I can say, Wait, what day is it? It's Wednesday. Winning Wednesday. All right, celebrate. No matter what's happening, there's always something to celebrate.

Anita Rao
Are there moments when your identity and role as a mother feels in conflict with this more kind of liberated sexual being more in tune, being that you are becoming,

Cordelia Gaffar
no, I'm to a place now, I would say, in the beginning, I felt like there was conflict. So if I go back to that time, it was like, I would say programming, right? Because the thoughts that were coming up for me was like, I shouldn't be doing this. If I have an extra evening, I really should be with my children. And now most of the time, my children say, Mom, you should be with adults, and you should be with someone who loves you, who's not us. So I feel very fluid in receiving from other sources and not feeling like I have to give all the time and perform all the time.

Anita Rao
It seems like your kids are really on your team.

Cordelia Gaffar
Yes, that's the best part of the whole thing is we are a team, and we work really well together and take really good care of each other. And I love it when I hear my 10 year old say, Mom, I need some time to nurture myself. It feels like I did a good job.

Anita Rao
Yes, I love that. I love that. Well, I'd love to close with a question about your hopes for your continued journey of cultivating a relationship with sex and pleasure and romance.

Cordelia Gaffar
I actually do want a husband. In fact, I want two. So again with the reverse polygyny, and I think once my children move out. I would like to cohabitate with one of my husbands and then have another one to visit in another place I feel that's the good place that I've got to within myself and what feels good in my bones. And I love that for me.

Anita Rao
You can find out more about everyone featured on today's show at our website, embodiedwunc.org, you can also stay up to date by following us on Instagram. Our handle is at embodied¼ª²ÊÍøÍøÕ¾. Today's episode was produced by Kaia Findlay and edited by Amanda Magnus. Nina Scott is our intern and Jenni Lawson is our technical director. Quilla wrote our theme music. This program is recorded at the American Tobacco Historic District North Carolina. Public Radio is a broadcast service of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I'm Anita Rao.